Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/08/1998 01:13 PM House JUD
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 473 - FIRE TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION Number 0037 CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the first item of business would be HB 473, "An Act relating to training and certification of fire fighters, fire instructors, and certain emergency responders; and providing for an effective date." CHAIRMAN GREEN called on Representative Mark Hodgins, sponsor of the bill. Number 0057 REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS, Alaska State Legislature, explained the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association came forward and asked him for some legislation. It was after the cutoff for individuals to sponsor bills, therefore, he had the House State Affairs Standing Committee sponsor it. The association wants to set up a system similar to the Alaska Police Standards Council for firefighters. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS further stated he has an amendment that would shorten the bill. The firefighters support the amendment. The bill would probably not go through if there is a fiscal note, therefore, the firefighters would like to see it put into statute and they will develop the revenue means to set the standards and operate the council through the local municipalities. Number 0176 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Representative Hodgins whether he has discussed this with the Department of Public Safety that has submitted the fiscal note. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "Yes." CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered whether the department is willing to withdraw its fiscal note. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "We'll wait and see." CHAIRMAN GREEN noted for the record Representatives Bunde, James, Green and Porter are present for a quorum. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked Chairman Green when he would like him to offer the amendment. CHAIRMAN GREEN replied it is his pleasure. He asked Representative Hodgins whether the amendment significantly changes what is before the committee. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "No." Number 0260 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained Amendment 1. It reads as follows: TO: CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 473, Draft version "E" Page 1, line 1 Delete "fighters and fire instructors" Insert "service professionals" Page 1, line 5 Delete "Fighters" Page 2, line 31 Insert "approve and/or" Page 3, line 3 Insert "approve and/or" Page 3, line 21 Delete "fighters and fire instructors" Page 3, line 23 - 31 Delete all Page 4, line 1 - 31 Delete all Page 5, line 1 - 15 Delete all REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained the amendment would change the title to read, "An Act relating to training and certification of fire service professionals and providing for an effective date." It would delete the wording "fighters" and "fire instructors" from the title. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 1, line 5, the word "Fighters" would be deleted. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 2, line 31, the wording "approve and/or" would be added. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 3, the wording "approve and/or" would be added. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 21, the wording "fighters and fire instructor" would be deleted. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 23 through page 5, line 15, all wording would be deleted thereby removing the definitions and directions. Basically, the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association wants to meet as a council and figure out what direction it wants to go and take. Number 0399 REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE made a motion to adopt Amendment 1. REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES objected for discussion purposes. Number 0409 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES referred to page 2, starting on line 31, and asked Representative Hodgins whether the language "fire fighter or fire instructor" should be left, or should it read "fire professionals." The amendment changes other references to the wording "fire fighter or fire instructor." It is also referred to in more places. Number 0430 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied he would like to leave the wording there. Number 0466 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER stated the language being deleted seems to be the essence of the bill. A person cannot be appointed a fire fighter or fire instructor unless certified. He asked Representative Hodgins whether he is suggesting that it be left to regulations. Number 0487 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied he just received the amendment a half hour ago. He feels a little bit uncomfortable removing all of this, but the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association wants to. Number 0523 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated he is generally familiar with this area having served for ten years on the Alaska Police Standards Council. He thinks what is being deleted is the part of public policy that should be established by the legislature - the standards. Certainly, the recommendation should come from the professionals, but the establishment of the policy should come from the legislature. He does not have a problem receiving a recommendation from the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association, but it should be adopted by the legislature. Number 0618 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked Chairman Green whether it is possible to put the amendment away until testimony is given on the bill. CHAIRMAN GREEN replied that would be... REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS agreed to do it that way. Number 0653 JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor, City of Kenai, testified via teleconference in Kenai. He noted that Dave Burnett is here, a 27-year member of the fire department and chief executive officer for the new fire training institute. He also noted that Jason Elson and Scott Walden are here from the fire department. He said he has been very pleased to have been part of the development of the bill over the last several months. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Williams whether he can speak to the amendment. MR. WILLIAMS replied he just received the committee substitute. Number 0767 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES made a motion to adopt the proposed committee substitute for HB 473, Version E, 0-LS1650\E, Lauterbach, 3/25/98. There being no objection, it was so adopted. Number 0798 DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety, explained Mayor Williams and the fire chief from Kenai talked to the commissioner and himself about establishing standards at which time the police standards model was suggested. It has made sense for the police and has improved the quality of officers. Having said that, Commissioner Otte's concern is the placement of the council within the Department of Public Safety. The department has within it the fire marshall who is the chief building inspector for the state. Otherwise, the department has little to do with fire service and actual fire fighting. If this is going to be created, he suggested including it in another department rather than automatically putting it inside the Department of Public Safety just because it falls within the broad view of public safety. His main objection to that is the fiscal note of $178,000, which includes an executive director, an office, and clerical support. Given the cap system since he has been a deputy commissioner, if there is an increase of a function within the department something has to go out the door to stay under the cap. Neither the commissioner nor he is willing to trade troopers, clerical support, or fingerprint expertise for something at this point in time. The department supports the concept, however. It is extremely important for firemen to have a minimum amount of training along with standards. He just questions whether it is appropriately placed within the Department of Public Safety. He has some concerns about creating a law and not funding it on speculation. Number 0941 CRAIG GOODRICH, Director State Fire Marshal, Division of Fire Prevention, Department of Public Safety, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. He stated the department is concerned about the fiscal note and its impact on the department. The funds will need to be provided in order to provide the necessary support. However, if the bill included language articulating funding outside of the legislature, for example, then it would lessen its impact on the department. Number 1033 KEVIN KELLY, Member, Rural Deltana Fire Department; Vice President, Rural Deltana Fire Protection District, testified via teleconference from Delta Junction. He noted he has Version B of the bill and is concerned about the volunteer fire departments, especially in rural areas, attempting to attain the standards set out by the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association. It would be extremely difficult for Delta Junction because of the number of hours of mandatory annual training. The vast majority of Alaska is covered by volunteers. Delta Junction's coverage area within its district is about 50 miles north-south and 35 miles east-west. There are two fire stations and about 26 volunteers. Delta Junction also responds to some parts outside of its district that have no coverage whatsoever. Version "B" of the bill would put an end to any fire coverage by volunteers throughout the Delta Junction area and other rural areas. Number 1115 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS noted that further testimony from Kenai will answer a lot of the questions. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Mr. Kelly whether the current standards for volunteers are local standards or are there statewide standards. MR. KELLY replied Delta Junction tries to follow the National Fire Protection Association's (NFPA) standards as close as possible. He suggested hearing from Audrey Brown to answer some of those types of questions. Number 1153 AUDREY BROWN, Member, Rural Deltana Fire Department, testified via teleconference in Delta Junction. She has been a member of the Rural Deltana Fire Department for about three years and was also a member in the mid-1980s. She is also a emergency medical technician (EMT) I in Delta Junction and certified through the state. She also has a law office and private practice in Delta Junction. The fire department has primary funds for fire protection for the entire area, including 50 miles down the Alaska Highway towards Tok, 35 miles north on the Richardson Highway towards Birch Lake, and 65 miles south of the Richardson Highway towards Paxson. The fire department is composed of volunteers with a wide age range of folks. Most are employed at full-time jobs. The fire department trains for skills regularly needed for fire situations typically encountered - water supply, engineering, extricating, and general fire fighting situations. In addition, the fire department participates annually in training offered by the local Department of Natural Resource's forestry office. If Version "B" is passed, it would effectively shut down the department. In addition, if the department does not meet the standards by July 1, 1999, and responds to a fire, everyone would be guilty of committing a misdemeanor. CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the Version E of the bill is in route to all the teleconference sites. Number 1266 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Ms. Brown as an EMT I whether she has to pursue a state sanctioned certificate. MS. BROWN replied, "Yes." The training is offered in Delta Junction. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated he would expect the same standards from a firefighter, even a volunteer firefighter. He asked Ms. Brown whether she can see the value of some statewide minimum amount of standards. MS. BROWN replied she can see value to some statewide minimum amount of standards. However, the current training program is providing the skills needed. These are skills that are not necessarily included in firefighter-I training, but are absolutely necessary in Delta Junction. She agrees that there should be some amount of minimum skills, but she does not agree with adopting national skills that are applicable to New York City, for example, without considering the additional training needed for rural departments. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Ms. Brown whether it would be fair to say that she would like state standards, but ones that take into consideration Alaska's unique concerns. MS. BROWN replied, "Yes." The unique concerns of Delta Junction are quite different than Kenai, Anchorage, or Fairbanks, for example. Delta Junction's volunteers work full time, and the NFPA requirements are an impossibility for a great number of folks. She reiterated there already is mandated training in Delta Junction tailored to meet its needs. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated he didn't mean to indicate Alaska's unique standards. He meant statewide standards and the variety of situations that firefighters might find themselves in. Number 1400 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Ms. Brown whether the training should be in the locales which would add a significant amount to the cost, or whether there should be a central place for training. MS. BROWN replied, if volunteers were mandated to go to a particular place for training, Delta Junction would probably loose most of the volunteers. She reiterated the training is done specifically for the needs of Delta Junction. For example, there are many volunteers who are in different stages of their training. Number 1503 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Ms. Brown whether the training is done by certified trainers. MS. BROWN replied, "No." Number 1465 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER noted the Alaska Police Standards Council requires basic instruction within the first year of employment. There isn't a requirement for auxiliary officers or reserve officers which are tantamount to volunteer firefighters. The training received is standardized, but there is the ability of any rural department to submit a training syllabus to the council for certification that can be implemented locally. Number 1503 CHAIRMAN GREEN stated there is a basic manual common to everybody with a chapter or two specified for each area. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated there probably are basic firefighter qualifications that can be established relevant to everyone. Then, from that point forward, based on locales, there can be in-service training for special needs. Number 1532 MICHAEL McGOWAN, President, Alaska Fire Chiefs Association, testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. The association is not advocating that the NFPA standards be the only standards, especially in rural Alaska. The association is well aware that firefighter-I standards are too much for smaller departments to meet. The association is advocating for a firefighters standards council to be established. There are NFPA and other standards that would allow smaller departments to adopt an incipient fire department. They would not make entries into building, for example. The association is also aware that there are a lot of volunteers. It is not advocating that the standards be mandatory like the police standards for employment. Number 1606 DAVID TYLER testified via teleconference in Homer. The term "fire service professionals" applies to everybody. Part of the reason behind the legislation is to help get some training into the rural areas. The Alaska Fire Chiefs Association recognizes that the Rural Deltana Fire Department doesn't have the need to train for high-rise fire fighting, for example. The idea for standards is to get the state on an even keel. This is why he is supporting the bill - a better level of training statewide. The training could still be done in Delta Junction, but the curriculum and direction would be supplied for their needs. Number 1690 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether there is anyone on the teleconference network that can speak to the amendment deleting the last few pages of the bill. MR. TYLER explained part of the reason is to take areas like Deltana into consideration and to provide for their needs. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if those sections of the bill were deleted and the required training was left to the local areas rather than leaving 90 percent of the training uniformed and 10 percent specialized for an area, would the intent of the bill be negated. MR. TYLER replied, "No." The council would have to approve the training programs for a local area. Number 1777 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to the Alaska firefighters and fire instructions fund, and stated it sounds like a dedicated fund. He pointed out that there are constitutional problems with a dedicated fund. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS noted that provision would be deleted, if the amendment is adopted. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether there is anybody to answer Representative Bunde's question in regards to the dedicated fund. Number 1844 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated the provision doesn't have a constitutional problem. It reads, "The fund consists of appropriations made by the legislature to the fund." It is a fund like any other fund that might receive program receipts from the licensing fee. Number 1865 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE agreed with Representative Porter's take on the provision. However, if it is indented to be a dedicated fund, it needs to be looked at more closely. If the provision is to stay in the bill, there would be another group advocating for money to fill a fund. Number 1891 REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG stated the bill looks similar to the structure of the professional boards and commissions with the exception of such things as the surety fund for the Real Estate Commission - impounded money returned to consumers in the event of a misdeed. He doesn't recall seeing any kind of fund for boards or commissions, however. It just goes to the general fund. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Representative Rokeberg whether there is money coming back from the general fund for the other boards and commissions. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied there are actual program receipts, but this goes through the general fund. There aren't any stipulated funds. CHAIRMAN GREEN noted most are a two-way street. In other words, they aren't just funding. Number 1957 MR. McGOWAN asked whether the amendment would delete the specific language of "fire fighters and fire instructors" and include the broad term of "fire service professionals" throughout the bill. CHAIRMAN GREEN replied that is his understanding. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied that is correct. MR. McGOWAN stated he would very much support that. There are many different titles in fire fighting including volunteers. Number 2017 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated there are a number of references to "fire fighter or fire instructor" throughout the bill. It is probably up to the bill drafter, to be consistent throughout the bill. There might be some problems if it mentions fire service professionals in the title, but only speaks to fire fighters and fire instructors throughout the bill. MR. McGOWAN stated another appropriate word is "fire service personnel." Either fire service personnel or fire service professional throughout the entire bill would be more consistent. Number 2060 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated whatever term is it needs to be defined in detail. Janitors, for example, don't need the same training, but they are fire service personnel. Number 2090 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE wondered whether the more appropriate term is "fire service personnel" rather than "fire service professional." A professional is also a volunteer. Number 2110 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated that according to his take on the bill, volunteers would be exempt from the required certification. Number 2120 DAVID SQUIRES testified via teleconference in Seward. He said he supports the current version of the bill. He understands what Rural Deltana Fire Department is saying, but there needs to be a state standard for the medical personnel. He can see where meeting a standard puts a big bind on the volunteer staff. Therefore, the standards should be community driven. As far as exchanging the language to "fire service personnel," he believes the volunteers should be included with the paid personnel. For years there has been a dual standard, and the Alaska Fire Fighters Association has tried to eliminate the difference between the two. "What's good for one, is good for them all," he declared. Number 2200 JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor, City of Kenai, testified via teleconference in Kenai. The first requirement is to establish the Alaska Fire Fighters Standards Council to give way to the creation of standards. The council is required in the bill to consult and cooperate with municipalities, agencies of the state, other governmental agencies, universities, colleges, and other institutions concerning the development of firefighter and fire instructor training schools and programs of the Department of Public Safety. He thinks, if everyone keeps his eye on the intent of the bill to establish the council by the effective date of July 1, 1999, the council could in the meantime work towards the creation of grandfather rights and grace periods. Number 2270 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated he is not too sure what the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association is trying to accomplish. He asked Mr. Williams to tell him why a bureaucracy is needed to be established. MR. WILLIAMS replied to his complete surprise the only public safety people in the state of Alaska that are not standardized are the fire departments. Every other public safety group within the state has standards. Number 2344 JASON ELSON testified via teleconference in Kenai. He informed the committee he is a member of the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association. He supports the committee substitute and the amendment. The language is very similar to the Alaska Police Standards Council in statute. In regards to the fund, it is neither a special nor dedicated fund. In regards to the deleted language starting on page 3, he wondered whether it is the bread-and-butter of the police council. He is not sure whether the sections should be deleted. In regards to the effective date, he noted it is the effective date for the council and not the date for the standards to be adopted. Number 2415 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Elson whether the bill is a certification process for paid personnel and not volunteers. MR. ELSON replied, "No, sir." The bill is to establish a council to help develop standards for fire service personnel across the state, including paid personnel, volunteers, industrial fire brigade personnel, and airport crash fire and rescue personnel, for example. The Alaska Fire Chiefs Association is not asking for all personnel to meet the same standards, but is asking for communities to buy into a level that they feel is needed to protect their assets. Number 2443 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Elson whether the communities would buy into a procedure common to all with some nuances, or some sort of training specific to their locations. MR. ELSON responded, "I think either one or both." TAPE 98-58, SIDE B Number 0000 SCOTT WALDEN testified via teleconference from Kenai. He stated he is in support of the bill. Number 0014 DAVE BURNETT testified via teleconference from Kenai. The idea behind the bill is to provide organization and continuity within the fire services statewide, including volunteers and paid personnel. The council would cooperate with the municipalities to provide the necessary training for the different areas. He supports the bill. Number 0036 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Burnett whether he agrees that the bill wouldn't necessarily mean the same training throughout the state, but that there would be some continuity with some nuances depending on the area. MR. BURNETT replied, "Yes." Number 0046 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked Mr. Elson whether the bill would cover the long list of emergency service personnel that he cited earlier. He wants to make sure that the intent of the bill is to cover what he would categorize as personnel other than firefighters. MR. ELSON replied the personnel that he listed are firefighters, not necessarily professional firefighters or volunteers. They are firefighters in the private sector such as, industrial fire brigade and airport crash fire and rescue personnel. Yes, standards for them would be developed and adopted and the council would oversee them. Number 0085 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated the way the bill is drafted falls short of including persons performing fire suppression services. He read the following language: "'fire fighter' means a person who performs fire prevention of fire suppression services as an employee or volunteer with a fire department registered with the state fire marshal." MR. ELSON stated the Alaska Police Standards Council addresses those members involved in the Department of Fish and Game and correctional officers, for example. Number 0130 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER explained there are two levels of certification for police officers - below a community of 1,000 and above a community of 1,000. The council struggled for four years to distinguish between standards for the two levels. It then addressed the Village Public Safety Officers (VPSOs) and correctional officers. The creation of an Alaska Fire Fighters Standards Council is asking for a monumental task. He believes that the standards should be brought back to the legislature for confirmation. Some legislators will probably be long gone before they comes back, however. Number 0180 MR. McGOWAN stated the majority of the work has already been done. There are many national standards that already exist. "We're not looking at reinventing the wheel," he declared. Although there is concern of setting standards too high for the rural and volunteer departments to meet, there are lower standards even within the NFPA, such as fire brigade standards. In addition, many standards are already mandated by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). The departments that aren't meeting those standards voluntarily are putting their necks on the chopping block in the event of a lawsuit. Number 0230 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated they would be even more so by Alaska's standards. Number 0247 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether the individuals who are presently engaged in fire fighting would be given a grace period to qualify. Number 0274 MR. ELSON replied it is the intent of the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association to allow for a grace period and grandfather clause. The members who currently meet the standards would be grandfathered, and there would be a grace period to meet any new standard. It is not intended to make everyone come on line automatically. Number 0307 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Elson whether there is any opposition from the departments. MR. ELSON replied the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association has taken great efforts to try to network with many of the departments. It has held meetings and teleconferences regarding the issue. It has informed its constituents in the Alaska Fire Fighters Association. It has worked with the state fire marshall's office, the entire Department of Public Safety, and the commissioner. At this time, the general consent is that legislation is needed to develop a fire service standards council. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Elson whether there was any consideration given to volunteer firefighters who come from other states to help with a fire situation such as Millers Reach. MR. ELSON replied generally they already meet certification standards in other states. If they were to take up residency in the state, there have been past cases where individuals have challenged or tested to meet standards. There is no opposition to that. MR. McGOWAN stated the issue of standards is to recognize some type of reciprocity, if Alaska recognizes the national standards. Number 0435 CHAIRMAN GREEN stated he is concerned about states that don't have standards and volunteers who are pressed into service. MR. McGOWAN stated a good Samaritan wouldn't be required to follow these standards, but a person in an organized fire department would be. Number 0469 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE first asked, if there is support for the original bill, why is there an amendment. Secondly, he sees nothing in the bill that addresses a phase-in. Thirdly, he sees language that needs to be cleaned up for consistency before he can vote on this bill. Number 0485 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG agreed with Representative Bunde. He is concerned that there hasn't been any real discussion on the forestry aspect of the bill and how it fits into the scheme. He noticed that there is a letter in the packet from Soldonta, Chief Len A. Malmquist, who mentions that the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association proposes a $1 per capita and program receipt concept as a stable funding source for the council. He is afraid it will be hard to sell the bill because of its fiscal note. The other professional boards and commissions are mandated to be self- sustaining through program receipts. He understands that this is a different thing and more analogous to the Alaska Police Standards Council. However, the lesson is how it fits into the public's need for the development of statewide standards and how it is handled with the public's treasury. It seems the way is to establish standards without the bureaucracy. Number 0571 CHAIRMAN GREEN concurred with Representative Rokeberg. The sponsor has indicated that there is hope for a zero fiscal note, but the testimony has indicated the contrary. In light of the concerns, he would prefer that the sponsor take another look at the bill and incorporate some of the things that have been discussed today. Number 0605 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated he would go ahead and make changes to the bill in order to satisfy the committee members, then bring it back.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|